To Rede or Not To Rede?

[Lady Motevia]

Lol I know, the title is corny and stupid... but it's a question I've been meaning to ask for a while now. What are everyone's true thoughts on the Wiccan Rede? Obviously, Paganism is an umbrella term that Wicca falls under. That is to say- not all Pagans are Wiccans. We find different groups (Asatru, for example) that have their own virtues that are quite different than that of the Wiccan Rede. We discussed a while ago when I was having some issues with my father about what is considered to be the "right" thing to do in specific circumstances. Many people treat the Rede as a sort of dogma. If you don't follow it religiously (ha! get it?), bad things will happen to you. Then we bring in the whole concept of karma that what you do, good or bad, comes back your way.

Reconstructionists would say that the whole concept of the Wiccan Rede is actually a very new one. We don't know what the ancient peoples believed (the Picts and Celts, for example), and we even find evidence that many cultures didn't have such doctrine (the Vikings). An article I found states the origins of the Wiccan Rede. It's quite interesting if anyone wants to take the time to look: www.sibyllineorder.org/editorials/ed_rede.htm. This article states that the Rede is merely that- a rede. As we discussed before, a rede is a suggestion. It's generally a good idea not to cause harm to another human being. Even in today's society, we can do hard time for assaulting a person.

But what I'm talking about is not going around hurting people with magick for power or glory. I'm talking about defending oneself. This can include defending your own virtues and your own family. If everything you've tried to do to protect yourself against a certain person doesn't work, then what do you do? Do you sit back and cower in fright while the other person continues to hurt the ones you love? Or do you take a stand and send negative energy their way so as to frighten them into leaving you alone? What about sending fairies to someone's house? Is it possible that we, as human beings, ARE the manifestations of karma? Is it possible that we, as magickal practitioners, ARE the physical entities responsible for inflicting karma when things go wrong? Yes, people say that karma is the energy force that comes back to the caster, but is it possible that witches, druids, and other practitioners of the Craft are simply the rods that the karmic energies use to direct themselves? Does karma even have a consciousness in order to manifest itself without the influence of humans? Could our sworn duty as magickal practitioners be to set the balance when things go wrong?

Now, I'm sure everyone is going to have their thoughts on this. Since this sort of involves all paths, I decided to put this in General Discussion instead of just under Wicca/Witchcraft. If you can't tell, I feel like having an intellectual conversation within the group. This is a topic my husband and I discuss regularly.

[Lady Motevia]

Here's another article to sort of explain what I'm talking about: www.ecauldron.net/rssrede.php.

[firemoonw]

I see what you are saying Motevia about having a intellectual assumption or the circumstances of what the wicca rede was meant to do for all magickal practitioners let see what we hear from the group.

[firemoonw]

I see what you are saying Motevia about having a intellectual assumption or the circumstances of what the wicca rede was meant to do for all magickal practitioners let see what we hear from the group.

[habibidancer]

You have some very good questions. Most of which I would actually hesitate to answer in this form of dialog... I hesitate because misunderstandings happen so easy in electronic communications.

I have spent many years forming my ethical values. (ethics being different from morals here). I find that my ethics NOW when compared to 25-30 years ago when I thought I was xtian are 10x more strict!

That said... if my son's life were threatened or I felt he were in danger somehow, would I hesitate to do WHATEVER it took to protect him? I probably wouldn't even stop to think about ethics or potential karmic fallout... I would do what I had to to protect him. However, I'm devious enough to come up with a way to avoid breaking the law of the land. I can't protect my son if I end up in jail, right? My hubby on the other hand, would not stop to think about breaking the law, thus he would end up in jail and be of no help to me.

Here's how I see it. The Rede is not a rule, it's advice. Most wiccans agree that it's good advice on how to behave magickally. Some wiccans apply the rede to their whole lives. To me, it's a personal choice... but if a person claims to be wiccan, I personally think they should follow the rede at least magickally. And if they belong to a coven, they follow that coven's traditions on adherance to the rede.

When it comes to ethics however, that's a whole other animal. Ethics is character. Character is how you would behave if you knew you wouldn't get caught. I have made mistakes but I still consider myself pretty darned ethical. If my household were being threatened, rather than instantly going on the attack, I would act in defense first by working magickal and mundane acts of protection. If that didn't seem enough, then I would call up magickal and mundane allies. My first inclination is to never turn to the fae unless you have a STRONG and positive established relationship with them already. The fae have their own set of ethics and it has very little resemblance to our own. Chaotic neutral in gaming terms, at best. Of course, some households DO have a strong fae connection (personal household brownies or similar) that may be inclined to loyally protect a family.

My hubby and I have different spiritual paths but we both are inclined to turn to dragons for magickal protection. It's easier for us to find dragon allies who have strong ethics that coincide with our own. I also turn to my own totem animal spirits for protection. They are already strongly attached to me and they have their own ways to take care of business. I can also rely on my son's protector totem. And, of course, I'd probably first turn to my Goddess and God first of all!

When I was forming my personal ethical boundaries, I of course learned first from my covenmates at the time (the rede, the Law of 3, karma, etc). I also read quite a bit. The chapter on ethics in Marion Weinstein's "Positve Magic" was excellent. Robin Wood has a book entirely on pagan/wiccan ethics called "When, Why, ...If". That one was very thought provoking. I own both those books but for some reason I can't find them. I also own a book called "An Ye Harm None" by Shelley TSivia Rabinovitch and Meredith Macdonald. It's on my to-read list but it looks like it covers all decisions in life, therefore it's subtitle Magical Morality and Modern Ethics seems apt.

I'd also recommend "The Science of the Craft" by William H. Keith, which discusses how quantum physics applies to the practice of magick... which led me to how the concept of karma might actually be a "truth" that applies to me.

In the end, you do what you feel you gotta do. Sometimes we make mistakes. Fortunately, hell is not a destination for us. There are consequences for every action (or inaction) that we do, and the decision for you is, will you take responsibility for those consequences, good or bad?

[Lady Motevia]

I've heard of "When, Why, ...If" but I haven't read it. That's definitely on my to-read list. I think you definitely have some good points here. No matter what we do, there are consequences. However, there are also consequences of inaction. Personally, I think a person NOT doing something to help themselves or another is just as bad as causing harm by doing something. Sometimes the only way to prevent harm is to cause it. Like we discussed last night at the meeting, there was a time where my family was in trouble and if it continued to escalate, I could have had CPS at my door. So the only way to get the person off my back was to ask for assistance from the fae (fairies love my daughter). I don't know what they did to the neighbor that was causing trouble and quite frankly I don't care. My family is safe and we're out of the harmful situation.

[firemoonw]

Personally I believe all action or inaction of consequences come from our own inability to deside how to defend our own personal ethical and boundaries with in witchcraft or family, I don't no if this sound good to you but that how I fill about this?

[Lady Motevia]

You know, what you just said reminded me of something. Some people say that bad consequences come back to you because you BELIEVE that they will if you do something harmful to someone else. That is to say that if you believe what you do will come back to you, that's basically putting that into your spell and it will come to happen. When a person casts a spell, they must believe and picture their outcome happening in real life. We all have to put ourselves in the mindset that what we cast out will work and see ourselves with the outcome. Now, if we try to defend ourselves by using magick but we are conditioned to believe that sending out negative energy will come back to hurt us, that's basically causing it to happen because of our strong feelings towards it. That being said, if you believe strongly that what you are doing is justified and nothing harmful will happen to you if you defend yourself, that's sending out positive energy to protect you from karma.

This right here is basically how I feel. If you believe karma will come back to you, it will. If you don't, that in itself is a spell that you cast along with the spell of your main intention. Does that make sense?

[firemoonw]

Yes it dose make sense, but I do believe when their is that much anger in some one it is hard to get the negative energy out of your body to do a proper magick spell with all the anger that you would have at the time or even week later that could basically cause negative energy or bad karma?

[Lady Motevia]

That is a good point. But how do we separate that kind of emotion? Even if you're not dwelling on that emotion in regards to the situation at that particular time, that doesn't mean it's not there. So does that then prevent us from ever casting successful spells?

[habibidancer]

Oct 25, 2011 8:44:23 GMT -5 Lady Motevia said:

You know, what you just said reminded me of something. Some people say that bad consequences come back to you because you BELIEVE that they will if you do something harmful to someone else. That is to say that if you believe what you do will come back to you, that's basically putting that into your spell and it will come to happen.

I don't say that. I personally do not think that consequences (good or bad) are determined by my belief in whether they happen or not. Now, I think it's possible to put off consequences for a while, by the power of my belief, but eventually they will all come to roost where they belong.

That being said, if you believe strongly that what you are doing is justified and nothing harmful will happen to you if you defend yourself, that's sending out positive energy to protect you from karma.

I disagree.
Because anyone can justify anything to themselves and really believe they are right.
"I lied to you for your own good"
"I stole this money because the corporation didn't need it and they had wronged me way more than what I stole."
and on and on and on. justifying our actions (and believing we're right) is WAY TOO EASY and also a slippery slope downhill to unethical behavior. Wife beaters often believed they were SUPPOSED to beat their wives to keep them in line. They knew they were right. Were they? are they exempt from the karmic consequences? No.

We ARE held accountable. Either the karmic consequences show up right now or they show up later. But they WILL show up regardless of what you say or think you believe.

So who holds us accountable? Since xtianity is not my religion, it is not jehovah, the devil or hell.

We hold ourselves accountable.

There are 3 parts of us. Our Talking Self (conscious mind), Our Inner Self (sometimes called our child self or unconscious mind), and our Spirit Self, (sometimes called Higher Self or Divine Self) which is the part of us that is part of and connected to Deity.

Our Spirit Self is the part of us that co-created, with Deity and with other Spirit Selves, the path our lives would be set upon. It determined what lessons we would learn, what experiences would shape us, what opportunities we would have to grow, change, use free will, everything. Some Spirit Selves are new, so they still live lives of selfishness, greed, evil or whatever, they become the people that do bad things, because they still have lessons to learn about WHY it's wrong to be bad. Other Spirit Selves have been around longer, they've learned those really hard lessons, so now they are on to other, more subtle lessons. Some of us need to experience being the victim after being the villian. Some of us are learning lessons of sacrifice or strength in difficult situations. Whatever it is our Spirit Selves set for us, that path was co-created with others (our parents, families, the friends we make) and we move along that path making free will choices that will either help or hinder us while we live that path. Some people may find (through past life regression work perhaps) that they are repeating the same lessons over and over in more than one life because the free will choices they've made in this life have kept them from learning the lessons. Other's get it faster and can move on to the next lesson a little quicker.

Our Talking Self is the part of us that tries to justify our behaviors, good or bad. Talking Self tries to convince our Inner Self because if we can convince our unconscious self of something, then we'll really believe it! Talking Self works up our emotions (intense desire, love, fear, anger, all of that) and uses those emotions to get Inner Self involved and convinced. Talking Self uses magickal tools and works the spells and our Inner Self (that childlike unconscious self) delights in those tools, dressing up in our magickal robe, the incense, the imagery. Once our Inner Self is on board, the magick we make works.

Inner Self can be deceived by our Talking Self. We can do anything and really believe and justify to ourselves that we were right to do it.

Spirit Self cannot be deceived. Justify whatever you want as much as you like, but you can't deceive the Divine. And your Spirit Self is part of the Divine. You don't even have to consciously believe this. Doesn't matter to me either way, but I know it to be true. No way in Hel that I'll think that telling a lie to my husband (it was for his own good!) will fly under Sekhmet's radar, and it certainly won't be missed by my own Spirit Self, who is both part of ME and part of GODDESS.

To me, being ethical is waaay harder than being moral. Morals are the rules that society has set. The moral thing to do is recycle. The moral thing to do is have good manners.

But this ethics stuff... it's so much harder. Because I know that it's me, it's the Divine that's going to see me in the dark.

Character is what you do when you know you won't get caught.

But we are always "caught" because our Spirit Self always knows. As for me, I don't want to repeat lessons on ethics over many lifetimes! I'm having enough trouble with other lessons!

[Lady Motevia]

I am willing to bet that you have some Christopher Penzcak in your collection, Habibidancer. What you are saying about the Inner, Talking, and Spirit selves are listed in his Temple of Witchcraft collection. But you were saying that if you do something wrong, your Spirit Self knows. "No way in Hel that I'll think that telling a lie to my husband (it was for his own good!" will fly under Sekhmet's radar, and it certainly won't be missed by my own Spirit Self, who is both part of ME and part of GODDESS"- so does that mean that karma is a dogma? Is it the Goddess who sends the energy we put forth back our way? You give examples of things that would be considered wrong by society that would benefit one persons gain (like stealing money from a corporation). That's not what I'm talking about here. What I'm referring to is keeping oneself alive. What I mean by this is doing what is necessary to make sure that you don't have more than others, but you have what you need to get by.

For instance, would it be wrong for a starving boy to take a piece of bread? This boy hasn't had food in weeks and is unable to get coin for doing any sort of odd jobs because no one will hire someone filthy and grubby. He sees a loaf of bread on a counter and takes it when no one is looking. This one bit of bread could mean life or death for him and his little sister. Would it be wrong to prevent them both from dying if they both have a right to life? But at the same time, wouldn't that be causing harm to the merchant who slaved hours over a hot stove in order to have a product to sell, and thus have no coin from a sale for that loaf of bread?

What about casting a spell for employment? If you cast a spell to get a certain type of job (not necessarily at a specific place, but just looking for a job that has certain qualities you're looking for) and there are a number of other qualified persons looking for this same position, how can this be justified? If your spell causes you to be given a job that someone else also needs, that would be causing harm to someone else. This person could also have a family that needs the money, but now they have to wait even longer because YOU got the job. Does this make you a bad person? Your family now has the money they need, but another family is left in the dust. How is this any different? Does that mean that we are forced to suffer for every spell we cast because what we did put us slightly ahead of someone else? And even if we were to say that "well, I would have been chosen anyway, so that doesn't matter", then what would be the purpose of casting a spell in the first place? Is there even a purpose for magick anymore? Not everything is so cut and dry as to "this is right and this is wrong". We don't know who else might be effected by our actions or inactions. So does that mean we should cower in fear and refuse to cast spells that will enhance our lives, all because someone somewhere will feel the effects of our spells- even if cast for good intentions?

Now, I'm not putting forth all of my beliefs. I'm merely acting as a devil's advocate here so I can get a discussion going in this dead group. Everything that I've been saying is things that I've found from other websites. I have my own morals and ethics that I hold to as a human being and practitioner of the Goddess. I don't believe in karma, dogma, or the Wiccan Rede, but that doesn't mean I don't have ethics. I don't believe that one must believe in consequences in order to want to do the right thing. Personally, I do what is right for me and my family and I try my best to help others in society. Not because I feel that if I don't, something bad will happen to me, but because I WANT to. Helping people gives me a good feeling no matter what way I go about doing it. But I'm not about to go about giving up what I have for someone else if it means that my (or my family's) right to life is taken away.

[Lady Motevia]

*Also, my apologies if this thread offends anyone. This is not my intention. This is merely to put a new spin on a subject that other Pagans and Wiccans dare not tread. If you don't believe in what this conversation persists of, then that is just fine. This thread is not meant to belittle anyone or say that so-and-so is right or wrong in their personal beliefs. The Pagan path is individual for everyone and should be treated as such with the same respect that everyone is entitled to.*

[firemoonw]

" wow " I think I will slow run like hell

[habibidancer]

lol I think I own one book by Christopher P. but I haven't read it! I have had some of his other books on my wish list though... maybe I should move them up in priority. Regardless, I didn't get these concepts from him, they were taught in my coven's traditions and further developed by study and research. I am not sure of the origins of these concepts of ethics within the LadyWood tradition... whether they began with Amber K teaching them to my covenmates in her first coven Our Lady of the Woods, or if they began earlier than that (the coven lineage goes back to Gardnerian two or three covens back I think, though LadyWood Trad is not Gardnerian), I never asked since I didn't feel the need to know at the time. It's interesting that Christopher P. has a similar philosophy, perhaps his coven lineage (if he has one) is similar to my own... I'm kind of interested now to look into it.

"so does that mean that karma is a dogma? Is it the Goddess who sends the energy we put forth back our way?"

Um... I guess one could call karma a dogma if the individual who believes in karma feels dogmatically about it? I'm not sure I feel that dogmatically about it... karma is of east Indian origin and we westerners picked up the use of the word to more easily express our varying beliefs in how the law of return works. As I understand karma though, it's more of an effect that happens over lifetimes, where as the three-fold law works within this one lifetime... but people use the word karma interchangeably with the three-fold law. Sometimes I think we westerners do not use the word "karma" correctly because we were not raised in the culture from which it came, but that is something for further study and not relevant here. Not all wiccans believe in reincarnation though, so karma would not be a dogma of their belief system but the three-fold law might.

"For instance, would it be wrong for a starving boy to take a piece of bread?" (note, I am abridging the quotes but do know that I read your entire post so I see the context)

Theft is theft, regardless of the circumstances around it. Yes, in my mind it really is that black and white. Circumstances will not change whether an action (or inaction) is right or wrong ethically. I may see it that black and white but how I act may not be so black and white. If my son and I were starving, (or even just me) just as this boy in your example, and I had to make the choice between theft or starvation and death, I'd steal the bread! Knowing full well that it is wrong and that I am going to have to deal with the consequences. However, perhaps that bit of bread keeps us/me alive long enough for us to change our circumstances for the better so that some time down the road I can return to that merchant, tell him what I did, apologize, and pay him back 3 times the worth of that bread. On the other hand, a CHILD may be too young to have learned that stealing is wrong, a child may still be acting on pure survival instinct. Do I think that a child is going to get slammed with "karmic" consequences for a behavior he doesn't know is right or wrong? Nope. Heck, even if the child DOES know that stealing is wrong, I suspect that the Universe is not going to slam the poor kid. I don't really agonize over these kinds of ethical questions. I'm not so dogmatic about ethics that I go around thinking that people need to be punished for every little thing they've done wrong regardless of circumstances. I'm a very small being in a very large Universe. I really only feel the need to be concerned about the ethics in the small section of the Universe that I live in.

"What about casting a spell for employment? If you cast a spell to get a certain type of job (not necessarily at a specific place, but just looking for a job that has certain qualities you're looking for) and there are a number of other qualified persons looking for this same position, how can this be justified?"

When I cast a spell that may effect others, the words that I speak or write for the spell always end with "an it harm none, so mote it be". 90% of the time my spells (and prayers too) end with "according to the free will of all and the good of all, an it harm none, so mote it be" but if I am rushed, I use the shorter version knowing that "an it harm none" will catch it all. I realize that me getting a job before someone else might leave them in the dust. But then again, them not getting that job might mean they are available to get an even BETTER job than the one I got! I don't know that and it's not necessary for me to know what happens to everyone else. I don't know what lessons they are on this earth to learn either. Maybe that job I got really sucks and there is a lesson there for me to learn but they are meant to get something better! As long as we do our spells ethically, without intent to harm, NOT setting up a spell to manipulate someone's free will, then it's all good. I'm not going to sit around and agonize over it, the Universe/Divine or whatever you want to call it has it covered.

This is how I was instructed in my coven and how I developed my ethics based on study of wiccan/witch readings and readings of other spiritual paths.

I actually enjoy discussing this stuff and it doesn't bother me at all whether someone "believes" the same as me or not. As long as peeps aren't doing baneful magick at me, not trying to manipulate my free will with their magick, I'm all good. Believe whatever you like. and I can discuss without getting mad that we don't believe exactly the same!

I will say that having read much on ethics (not just wiccan/witch ethics), things like the Law of Return appear in nearly all major established religions, so most spiritual academics call the Law of Return or the Golden Rule or whatever name it is called in any religion, a "spiritual law of physics" because it appears so universally. (hence why I suggested reading the Science of Magic book that approaches the concept of magic from a quantum physics view, and in my mind validates the law of return from that viewpoint). Gravity works whether you believe in it or not, and in my reality, the law of return works whether you believe in it or not. (by the way, I realize that it's possible to defy gravity, it's been done in certain cultures... there are many discussions that can spin off but I'm speaking in general, accepted realities here)

Also, I wouldn't say that "karma" or the "law of return" or the consequences for being naughty are sent by the Goddess. Again, in my belief system or my reality or whatever you want to call it, the law of return is a law of physics... you get what you put out. If you put out negativity all the time, it's eventually going to come back to you. No one "sends" it. However, many pagans become attached to their pantheons that they work within, and their thinking and speaking follows. But I do not believe that Sekhmet is the ultimate source of the law of return or the consequences of my actions.

I know that it's possible that people read what I write and feel like I'm coming off very dogmatic about ethics. Perhaps I am dogmatic about it... The coven I was in was known for (and sometimes ridiculed for) being "goody goody" witches. I guess I'd rather be ridiculed for being too ethical than not being ethical enough. But these are the traditions of LadyWood tradition as it was taught to me by the high priest/high priestess of the coven I was in (a daughter coven of Our Lady of the Woods), enriched by my readings in other traditions' ethics, and in some other religions' ethics, and it's how I want to live. I don't do it because I'm afraid of the law of return, or karma or Sekhmet coming to kick my ass (though I might be wise to be afraid of that! LOL). I choose to live with my ethical system because I believe it to be the right thing to do. Because I believe that I get what I put out into the universe and I'd rather put out ethical, positive energy. I do it because if I live ethically, if I put out positive energy, the universe becomes that much a better place to live, for everyone. Even if I decided now to not operate in the LadyWood tradition, or if I decided to not even be a witch or wiccan, my ethical beliefs probably wouldn't change. I know too much in my core to change it. If anything, I'd be more likely to get even stricter with myself. But I am SO not ready for that! lol... where I'm at is hard enough.

Magic(k) is a tool. Just like a screwdriver, a resume, a can opener. A tool can be used ethically or unethically. Some wiccans/witches may feel like they have to be EXTRA careful when they use magick. Possibly because magick is a more subtle, often more powerful tool, or perhaps because controlling it is not as easy/obvious as controlling a screwdriver. I think that's why we see so much discussion/debate over ethics, karma, the law of return. I find the discussion/debates interesting but I usually don't participate unless I know the people face to face. I rarely get involved in online discussions at all, unless I know the people face to face because long ago when I did try to discuss things politely online, people would get all confrontational... you know, the anonymity of the internet making it easy to be a jerk online because you never have to see them face to face. There's room for all of us to believe what we want to believe, and we can discuss it just like we have been, without getting all up in each others' faces about it. (this is why I said previously that I hesitate to discuss... I have been burned!)

And, nothing that you have posted in this thread offends me. And I do not intend to offend anyone else by what I write here. People have the right to believe whatever they want! and if someone doesn't like what I say, feel free to ignore it!